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Eight Sleep Matteo Franceschetti Says it’s time for a Smarter Mattress to improve your health

Episode Summary

This week Harry talks with Matteo Franceschetti, founder and CEO of the Khosla Ventures-backed startup Eight Sleep. The company’s smart mattress, called The Pod, is one of the latest (and largest) entries in the burgeoning market for home digital-health devices.

Episode Notes

The Pod is designed to counteract body heat and provide a surface that stays cool all night, on the theory that people sleep better when it’s cool or cold. It includes four layers of foam topped by an “Active Tech Grid Cover” that includes sensors to detect body temperature, breathing patterns, heartbeat, and tossing and turning, as well as a network of tubes that silently carry water through the cover, regulating temperature for each side of the mattress.

The New York, NY-based company has raised more than $70 million from big Silicon Valley firms including Khosla Ventures, Founders Fund, and Y Combinator and has roughly 60 employees around the world. Franceschetti, a former competitive ski racer, tennis player, race car driver, and attorney, has said that he thinks of Eight Sleep not as a mattress company but as an “end-to-end platform for sleep.”

The Pod comes with a free smartphone app that controls the grid cover and aggregates data it collects—such as resting heart rate, respiratory rate, sleep stages, sleep time, and heart rate variability—into a daily sleep fitness score, which gets charted over time. The company aims to use the data to coach mattress owners toward healthier habits that maximize their quality sleep time. A smart mattress can do this better than a smart ring or smartwatch, Franceschetti says, because it’s got more space for sensors, and “there’s nothing to wear and nothing to charge.”

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Harry Glorikian: I’m Harry Glorikian, and this is MoneyBall Medicine, the interview podcast where we meet researchers, entrepreneurs, and physicians who are using the power of data to improve patient health and make healthcare delivery more efficient. You can think of each episode as a new chapter in the never-ending audio version of my 2017 book, “MoneyBall Medicine: Thriving in the New Data-Driven Healthcare Market.” If you like the show, please do us a favor and leave a rating and review at Apple Podcasts.

There’s a saying among startup entrepreneurs that sleep is just a symptom of caffeine deprivation.

But seriously, even software coders need a solid seven or eight hours of sleep every night, or else they’re at higher risk for a whole range of health problems, like diabetes, cardiovascular disease, obesity, and depression. If you have chronic insomnia or sleep apnea, like me, you know how rotten the next day feels when you haven’t slept well.

And the bad news is that thanks to the coronavirus pandemic, it’s even harder for a lot of us to get a good night’s sleep. In a survey from late last year, 44 percent of people said they were sleeping worse since the pandemic started, and only 10 percent said they were sleeping better.

But the good news is that innovators are thinking about how to use technology to help us sleep better. In a show last August I talked with the CEO of Oura, which makes a ring that tracks your heart rate, breathing rate, body temperature, and movement while you sleep and reports back with a daily sleep score. And this week we’re going to hear from a company called Eight Sleep that wants to turn your whole mattress into a giant sleep monitor.

The CEO of Eight Sleep is an Italian entrepreneur named Matteo Franceschetti. And he says his fascination with sleep goes back to his days as an athlete, when he was focused on how to optimize his resting time to recover from workouts as fast as possible. If Elon Musk can go to Mars, Matteo says, why should we settle for spending a third of our lives on a dumb piece of foam?

Eight’s mattress is literally blanketed with sensors that track your heart rate, your body temperature, and your night-time tossing and turning and send all the data to a smartphone app. It also has a layer that acts a little like the coils in your refrigerator or the radiator in your car. It uses circulating water to keep the top of the mattress at the best temperature for sleeping.

Matteo says a smart mattress could not only help you sleep better, but could also become a preventative health aid, analyzing patterns in your sleep to catch conditions like arrhythmia, sleep apnea, and even covid-19. And his big Silicon Valley investors must be equally optimistic—because they’ve put more than $70 million into the company. Here’s my interview with Matteo.

Harry Glorikian: Matteo, welcome to the show.

Matteo Franceschetti: Thank you for having me.

Harry Glorikian: No, it’s great to have you on. I’m. Really curious and hoping that the listeners of the show really sort of enjoy this segment because sleep is actually something important to me. Somehow I don’t seem to get enough of it or get quality time of it, But let me start by your background, because I was sort of trying to keep up with all the all the moves that you’ve made. I think it was like I was seeing a racecar driver skier, investment banking lawyer, I mean, it was a whole bunch of different moves that I want to make sure that I got right. But give us a quick version of your your biography as an entrepreneur.

Matteo Franceschetti: Yes, so when I was a teenager, I was an athlete, so I was doing tennis tournaments, the ski races, and I also race with cars, I did the European Hill climbing races with Audi and some other stuff. So that was my passion at the time. Then I became a business lawyer, a boring business lawyer, working. I was working at two of the largest law firms [in Europe], both of them in the UK. So between Milan and London. And then there was finally an opportunity to become an entrepreneur in Italy. And I say finally, because it’s really, really hard to raise money in Italy. So unless you find an opportunity that it’s substantially profitable since day one, you couldn’t become unless, yes, you have other opportunities, which I didn’t have. So I was able to start a company there. It was in solar and we were developing large utility scale solar plants. It did reasonably well. It was profitable. Then we sold it. I Came to the US and I did the same thing again, which then got acquired. And then I finally started Eight.

Harry Glorikian: So, the smart mattress business – why? Like, did it just came to you, all of a sudden? Bad sleep? What drove you to this business?

Matteo Franceschetti: Yeah, so and probably we’ll talk about that. But our long term vision is the mattress is really a commodity for us as a form factor. We are really a digital health company and we are improving performance, which if you think really goes back to my background as an athlete, really focused on recovering as fast as possible. And so a certain point I started looking at my bed and I sat there wondering why I was spending a third of my life on a piece of foam. And Elon Musk is taking me to Mars. It’s technology everywhere. But then I’m still now waiting every night and there on this piece of foam hoping to recover. And I say why there is no technology? How can we build the technology that will help me recover as fast as possible? And that is how everything started.

Harry Glorikian: So tell me then, you know, what’s wrong with the mattress technology today? I mean, you know, when you go to some of these stores, there’s like all sorts of, quote, fancy technologies or materials that are being put together. And they’re, you know, you lay on the bed and they give you a thermal image, which is maybe useful. But, you know, in general, I think it’s it’s a lot of I can’t say it on the air, but not a positive dynamic when it comes to the mattress industry. So what is it about the industry? Is it you know, it’s overcrowded. It’s got names like Casper. What’s the opportunity you see?

Matteo Franceschetti: So I think there are a couple of problems. And I talk about sleep. I don’t I, I don’t even talk much about the mattress market itself, but, so for 2,000 years, the way wesleep didn’t change. If you read the history of people in 2,000 years ago, they were going somewhere and expect them to wake up seven to nine hours later. So there was no improvement. So there is no technology in sleep. That is the first point. The last innovation in sleep was memory foam, invented in 1960, which is just another piece of foam just with different properties. And so we let’s say we live 100 hundred years. We are going to spend 33 years of our life on this form. And what we believe it is to instead is that through software and hardware, we can leverage the power of technology to improve our sleep. And actually we want to achieve two things. First, what if we could sleep, what if we could compress sleep? What if you could sleep only six hours and get more rest than when you were sleeping eight hours? First. And second is during those six hours, can we scan your body? Can your bed become a medical device that scans your body every single night in order to let you know if there is anything wrong? What if we could detect early signs of cancer while you are asleep and provide this data to your doctor? That’s what we are building.

Harry Glorikian: Ok, I’m curious to get there at some point, and if I could only sleep for six hours, I could get a lot more things done during the day, that’s for sure. Maybe even write a whole other book. Your first product, though, was a top layer of sensors that sort of fit over the mattress. And then you eventually migrated to putting the sensors into the mattress and then you added thermoregulation. So what was what was that evolution over time and. What drove you to sort of add the next feature?

Matteo Franceschetti: Yeah, we knew from the beginning, so we analyze things from the beginning how we can compress your sleep. So how can we help you sleep faster? And we knew since from the beginning that the big elephant in the room is temperature. At the time, we were a small startup and we understood that first, that we have to start tracking your data and become really good at data. And then based on the data, we could develop a dynamic modulation system that could adjust the temperature based on your sleep stages and biometrics. So it was just connecting the dots. We already knew at the time where we wanted to go. We just now decided to focus our priorities first on data, then dynamic thermoregulation, and now new products will come and they will manage other environmental factors and but associated with the bed.

Harry Glorikian: You also have an app, right? And I assume that that’s the brains. The bed is sort of more of the lower level thinking, whereas most of the thinking happens on the app and then there’s got to be a cloud connection that sort of pulling it all together. So was this part of the vision from the beginning, was, that app as an integral part of it?

Matteo Franceschetti: Yeah. So the the bed does two things. It collects the data and obviously it changes the temperature. Everything, the whole intelligence, the computing power is on the cloud where we are running a lot of different servers with a lot of computational power. And the app is the tool for you to see your data and to control your device and to be coached, because there is also the whole part of sleep coaching that we provide to the app.

Harry Glorikian: So, OK, I mean, I have an Apple Watch. I think you’re wearing an Apple Watch, right? I mean, I’ve talked to the CEO of Harpreet at Oura. And there’s all these different devices. What makes the sensor-filled mattress better than any one of these? Or maybe is a combination of the two that get you to a better data analytic score.

Matteo Franceschetti: Yes, a couple of differences. The first one in our case, you don’t have to wear or charge anything, you go to bed as you did last night, and tomorrow you wake up and you have all your heart rate data, respiration rate and sleep. So nothing to wear and nothing to charge. Second, because of the form factor of our device, which is a bed, we have a lot of space. And so over time we can start adding many more sensors than a wearable could not add, even Apple, just because of space. But the most important difference is for us, data is not the end point like most other wearables. The wearable, all they can do, is they collect data numbers and based on the data they will use our recommendations. For us the data, again, is not the end point, it is the starting point, because based on the data, we can change the temperature for you to help you fall asleep faster, get 20 percent more deep sleep, get more rest, less tosses and turns and less wake ups. In the future, we will control more environmental factors that will adjust in real time based on your data. So we are going to do the work for you, not just us telling you what you should do. We are going to do it for you and you will see the benefits.

Harry Glorikian: Well, that’s what I was thinking. I was thinking like the latest Apple Watch also has blood oxygen on it. Right. And so I’m not sure you could incorporate a blood pulse ox into the mattress, but that may be another data point that lets you know what’s happening with the person that sleeping and then it’s connected to the thermostat on the wall. And not only do you control the bed, but you can control the entire environment in the room. So regarding the app, what do you think are the most important functions you have on that, that that interacts with somebody and sort of influences what they do or maybe what’s happening in the background that they can’t see?

Matteo Franceschetti: Yeah, so there are three critical or three key dimensions in the app. First, the thermal regulation part, right, Where we got your feedback and we keep adjusting temperature to maximize your sleep. Secondly is the whole sleep data and health data and the connected coaching. So you will be able to see all your data. I will provide you with recommendations and we will show you correlations when you do. This is what happens. The third part is content. So we provide the breathing exercises, the relaxation, stretching. So a variety of content that you can use it to unwind before going to bed or to help relax in the evening.

Harry Glorikian: I was trying to think about this because I actually I don’t have one of these beds, although I think I should probably have one of these beds. Is it, does it go through a testing session? Because I’m almost thinking like one night you want to sleep with it warmer. One night you want to sleep with it colder and basically train the model on you in particular.

Matteo Franceschetti: Yeah, the models train based on two dimensions, one, your own personal needs, your environment, right. We know your zip code and so we know there is a storm. We know the temperature of the bedroom. So we keep adjusting based on your biometrics, the temperature of the bedroom and the temperature in your zip code. And secondly, the adjustments also happen based on similar themes. So because we have several thousand people sleeping on our devices and we are able to see that for people of your gender and age, there are certain type of temperatures that maximize the sleep more. And so we keep learning and then we will provide you a recommendation to make those changes.

Harry Glorikian: So is it me that makes the recommendation? I mean, the change or is it. The app itself? I’m trying to now get to the machine learning part of it, or how you’re incorporating your analytics on the background that then changes that, right, because I’m asleep. And so hopefully there’s some automation in the background that’s running for me.

Matteo Franceschetti: Yeah. So I’m already testing in my bed a fully automated system and that dynamically adjusts temperature based on my biometrics. So the end goal is that the device will do everything for you. You just get the benefit of falling asleep faster and getting better sleep.

Harry Glorikian: Have you been able to compress your sleep because of it?

Matteo Franceschetti: I mean, all our customers are already to two different degrees, right? They are already saving 12 hours a year and just falling asleep faster. They are getting more restless sleep because they got 40 percent less wake-ups, 30 percent less toss and turns. And so by helping you to fall asleep faster and getting more efficient sleep, we are already compressing your sleep.

Harry Glorikian: So, now, I have, unfortunately, sleep apnea. Do you, have you seen any effects with people that have a condition like mine? I mean, I know that you haven’t run a study as far as I know on this, but just asking.

Matteo Franceschetti: Yeah. So we are actually trying to start this with a major hospital in New York where we compare our device to a polysomnograph and we have seen already multiple episodes of sleep apnea. We’ve done this play in the app. So it’s just something that is happening for us in the backend, in the training part of our models. So the first thing you will see in the future is that we will be able to monitor your sleep apnea without you getting a CPAP machine. And obviously we don’t have a CPAP machine. But if you have a light or mild sleep apnea, even just monitoring it without doing anything is some sort of help. And then we didn’t develop a model yet to play with temperature to see if we can help you. But another function that we have in the bag is also vibration. So our bed can vibrate, and we use that to wake you up. And so one of the tests that we might run is to see if we can vibrate you to sort of waking you up when you’re having very heavy episodes of sleep apnea.

Harry Glorikian: Interesting. Interesting. So is there a connected health angle to the Eight Pod? Does the mattress interconnect with Apple HomeKit or wearables like the Apple Watch or the Nest thermostat or your sound system?

Matteo Franceschetti: So it connects obviously with Apple Health and the same platform for Google and so that it does it in two ways. So we see we can see your fitness data and provide you with the recommendation and correlation between fitness and sleep. But you also will see your sleep data in your Apple Health. We are also connected, you can set it up with Amazon Alexa, to control it through voice. And more integrations will come.

Harry Glorikian: Interesting have you guys, because I haven’t looked is, have you published any data on this or done a sort of a study to show that people sleep better on a cooler mattress or maybe somebody else has done that to show that that’s the case?

Matteo Franceschetti: Yeah, there is already plenty of medical evidence. There is also the book of Matthew Walker. He’s a professor at Berkeley, “Why We Sleep.” There is a whole section about the importance of thermoregulation in your body. And the reason is pretty simple. Your body is already changing temperature during the night and actually during the whole day. So when you hear people saying, oh, you should sleep at 68 degrees, that is just wrong. And the reason the 68 degrees could be right for a couple of minutes, 30 minutes an hour, but not the whole night because your body temperature is changing. And so what we do is we are not reinventing the wheel, we are just facilitating your body to make those temperature changes faster. At the same time, there is plenty of medical evidence that proves that you should sleep in a colder environment during deep sleep and you tend to get more sleep in the first part of the night, but then you should be in a more neutral environment in the second part of the night when you get the more REM. And the reason is, while you are in REM, your brain deactivates temperature control in the body. And so if it’s too hot or too cold, the brain would would not let you get the REM because you could die. Imagine you were in a store. Yeah. And so being in a thermally neutral environment will facilitate the switch for your brain from deep and light into REM. So there are all these tricks that have been proven and there are a bunch of medical studies that already show it. There was just no one who was able to develop a technology and make it mass consumer.

Harry Glorikian: So why did you guys settle on the circulating water as opposed to some other form of the process, right?

Matteo Franceschetti: Yeah, so I mean, the water is a great material, if you want to call it material for more conductivity. We are able to provide any temperature between 55 degrees and 110 degrees so we can make your bed and your body really cold or really warm. Obviously, almost no one sleeps of these extremities. But in the future, we are exploring other technologies that they do not require the liquid, but it is always a thin balance between cost and benefit.

Harry Glorikian: You know, obviously, this is not the sort of mattress that I might get from my son who’s constantly changing. So it’s it’s a higher end product. And you know what sort of customers are looking at this product? I’m assuming it’s those people that want to optimize for, like you said, better recovery, maybe athletes would be more in tune with it. But I’m just making a wild guess at this point. Who’s the optimal customer for this?

Matteo Franceschetti: We call them everyday athletes, and honestly, it’s really anyone who wants to feel great in the morning, it could be a mom, it could be a doctor, it could be you know, they are health conscious. So they don’t need to be educated about the fact that sleep is one of the three pillars of health. They are already going to the gym. They’re already taking care of what they eat and they want to take care of sleep, which is, again, the third pillar of health. Specifically for us right now, the core is between 30 and 45 years old in terms of age. But again, anyone who wants to feel great in the morning and I think there are billions of people out there that need that are our audience.

Harry Glorikian: Well, it’s interesting because I think people are because of these wearables becoming much more in tune with sleep. Like, I know that if I have one extra glass of wine now, it’s I know that that night is is is over. Like, deep sleep is almost going to be nothing. And just because I’ve seen it over and over and over again now, I’m not sure why I don’t learn my lesson and not have that next glass of wine, but I’m probably having too much fun with anybody that I’m with and and having that extra glass of wine. But, you know, looking at the digital health aspects of this, what’s the vision other than just getting better sleep? There’s all this data being accumulated. You’re talking about adding more things as time goes on. What’s your vision for the company? I know you said that we’re going to be able to eventually detect cancer. I’m I’m always a little skeptical of that without taking a blood sample. But how do you see the digital health aspects of this and, you know, feeding into the the more, you know, medical side of the equation?

Matteo Franceschetti: If that’s your vision, the sense we are exploring, there is already plenty of medical evidence that we can detect cancer. So it is a matter of the sensor that you use. Again, we are not reinventing the wheel. We are bringing a lot of things that have been tested and used to mass consumer, and that is what we’re working on. But the digital health, we call it preventative health, that is what is really the long term vision for our company. Again, we are not a mattress company. We don’t have one single foam expert. We just work with the greatest and largest foam manufacturer in the world. Everyone else is just into sensors and technology and machine learning. And preventative health is what we really know.

Matteo Franceschetti: What I think will be my legacy, hopefully, one day and how can we save lives? There are a couple of different things we can do. First, through your heart rate, we will be able to predict if you are getting sick. Usually your heart rate at rest changes a couple of days before you get sick. Second, we will be able to monitor arrythmia. Third we will be able to monitor sleep apnea. And fourth, through some of the sensors we are exploring, we want to get into full body scanning and have a scan of your body every single night. This will be reflected in two things. First, obviously, this [inaudible] to see if there is anything that that should be disclosed. But second, even more important, we will see how you’re aging right. The beauty of our product compared to a wearable, we don’t have a 60 percent churn in six months. Our customers, they keep using our product every single day for 10 years. And so biometrics today are different from your biometrics in three years and they are different from the one in six years. Based on that, we will have a trajectory of how we are aging and we will be able to coach you to work on what needs to be adjusted.

Harry Glorikian: Interesting, because I was just I had a very long conversation with one of the founders of a company called Humanity, which is actually doing, you know, they have an app, they’ll connect to your wearables, but they do a quarterly blood test specifically to start to look at markers, to make a determination on aging and be able to recommend something. So I always you know, I always wonder, like it’s the aggregation of this data, because different devices are better at different things. Like, you know, like I said, a pulseox needs to have some level of contact with me. And so I’m wondering about the integration of this. But how are you managing the more the advanced analytics on the back end? How is that, you know, is that being done here? Is it being done abroad? And how are you thinking about the next level analytics that you need to do to make this more predictive or pulling in historical data sets from someplace else to give you an idea of how to train your models?

Matteo Franceschetti: Yeah, so everything is made in the US. Everything is made by engineers here in the US. They work on machine learning models and they are models the best way for us to train our models. There are two ways. One, through clinical trials, which we are doing clinical studies where we compare our device to medical grade devices and we can elevate the accuracy of our data. And second is a large volume, a large volume of data. And so from from a practical standpoint, as soon as you have the gold standard and you know your accuracy and you have a large volume of data, we already have internally the capabilities to be regressions and to develop all these plans. Obviously, like any startup for what we want to achieve, we are still small and we will need to keep growing. So we need to have more engineers, just increase bandwidth. But we are really develop internally the skill.

Harry Glorikian: Can you tell something like if somebody takes a therapy, you can see that something is happening? Or if they have a cup of coffee too late, can you indicate something is happening? Or like me knowing I’m having an extra glass of wine, like something is happening and provide a feedback mechanism, is that built into the way that we are building it?

Matteo Franceschetti: Yeah, we are building it today as we speak. So it is going to happen this quarter or beginning of next quarter and is connected to this vision of coaching overall, right. And so you will be able to, we will make you questions. Potentially in the future of certain things they could be detected on our own or maybe there are other devices that are detecting and you have that data in Apple Health and we pull the data from Apple Health. So it could happen both ways and based on that we will coach you and we will be able you will be able to know, as a matter of fact, that all the times that you have a glass of wine that your sleep drops 15.3 percent and your REM drops 12.5 percent.

Harry Glorikian:, my deep sleep just falls. It doesn’t drop. It just goes away. I mean, last night last night was my wife’s birthday, so we were definitely having some wine. And now last night was, forget it.

Matteo Franceschetti: It happens to everyone.

Harry Glorikian:Well, I you know, it’s funny because I don’t remember. Well, maybe I didn’t feel it when I was younger, but I feel it now for some reason it’s much more pronounced. So, I come from the world of clinical trials and clinical studies. But, you know, do you plan on publishing? Like, I actually think your bed has been used in trials. If I remember reading correctly, there was one University of Pennsylvania, I thought it was, that was using the bed for a trial.

Matteo Franceschetti: So we did a couple of things. There are three studies where that range from two top universities or hospitals here in the US. And then we gave our devices to a bunch of different labs or universities or other hospitals. And so they use that and they compare us even to other wearables. But yeah, we want to double down in general in clinical trials because becoming extremely accurate is important for us. It’s important for our users if we want to achieve this long term vision that I was sharing.

Harry Glorikian: Yeah, it’s interesting. I mean, I also I interviewed Christine Lemke from Evidation Health. Right. So it’s real-world evidence on wearables and so forth. And some of the things that we find is like, it’s the long-term data, as opposed to that single moment of accuracy that really gives you a better vision of what’s happening with that patient. It’s interesting when you’re gathering, you know, such a volume of data and then being able to do the analytics on it, that you can see certain things happening. As you said, somebody getting sick four or five days before they actually realize that they’re getting sick. Does does the bed actually do temperature measurements?

Matteo Franceschetti: We can infer it, but, yeah, we don’t measure up specifically to your body temperature for now.

Harry Glorikian: Ok. I think there’s a wearable that’s going to have to go with this at some point, right?

Matteo Franceschetti: Yeah, there are different ways, again, I think where we can leverage our superpower. Our superpower is the space. And so we can use sensors that can track your body and body temperature in a couple of different ways with high accuracy.

Harry Glorikian: Well, this sounds wonderful. This sounds like I should it was funny because I said to my to my wife, I said, you know, “I’m going to be talking to Matteo. We’re going to be talking about this system. Maybe it can help me sleep better. We should think about getting this.” She said, “I love my mattress.” So I may have to wait for this to get old first.

Matteo Franceschetti: But now we sell also the cover only under the mattress so you can retrofit your mattress and install the technology on any mattress. We launched it a few months ago and it’s actually becoming a stronger part of our revenue. And so, because what we notice is although there is a big piece of our customers who just want the whole matter as the best in class and they buy it, but there are others that maybe they cannot convince their partner, or maybe they just bought recently a bed, and they don’t want to change it, but they still want our technology. And so we created a cover, that can retrofit any bed with our same technology and so will track everything about your health. Plus, it will then automatically adjust the temperature.

Harry Glorikian: Interesting, because when I was looking at the photos there look like there was a unit with water in it for the thing. Does this cover that goes on it also have a water reservoir?

Matteo Franceschetti: Yeah, we call it the Hub, which sits next to the bed. And then there is the cover that goes over the bed.

Harry Glorikian: Ahh. Okay Interesting. Well, that may be something I have to convince her of.

Matteo Franceschetti: 50 percent of couples, they fight around temperature because they have different temperature preferences. And the reason is temperature, again, is very personal. It changes every night and is different based on age, gender, metabolism, what you ate or what you drank. And so every night is different.

Harry Glorikian: Yeah, yeah. I think if it was up to my wife, she’d sleep with the windows open, but that’s not me. Well, this was great. I can only wish you the best of luck. And hopefully these technologies will help people like me sleep better and be healthier because we want to live a long and healthy life. Was there anything that I didn’t ask you that I should have asked you that you wanted to talk about regarding the technology?

Matteo Franceschetti: No, I think we’ve covered everything. Just check it out on And I’m pretty active on Twitter so you don’t have any question. You can follow me there and and I’ll be responsive.

Harry Glorikian: Ok, excellent. Thank you. Grazie.

Matteo Franceschetti: Grazie. Thank you so much.

Harry Glorikian: That’s it for this week’s show. We’ve made more than 50 episodes of MoneyBall Medicine, and you can find all of them at under the tab “Podcast.” You can follow me on Twitter at hglorikian. If you like the show, please do us a favor and leave a rating and review at Apple Podcasts. Thanks, and we’ll be back soon with our next interview.


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