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Clint Van Marrewijk from SaferMe on COVID-19 Tracing Inside Companies

Episode Notes

Harry’s guest this week is the founder and CEO of a New Zealand firm, SaferMe, that had developed proximity-based smartphone apps for worker safety. When the coronavirus came along, their apps turned out to be a great way to help companies build their own “contact tables” to identify, test, and isolate SARS-CoV-2 carriers.

In epidemiology, contact tracing is the art of determining who has crossed paths with an infected individual, so that those exposed can be alerted and can take appropriate action, such as self-isolating. Health agencies around the world are building public smartphone apps to assist with contact tracing, but they’re being deployed at a national scale, whereas many businesses need more detailed information to protect their workers.

Van Marrewijk says SaferMe had already built technology that creates a “virtual safety bubble” around each worker—issuing an alert, for example, if lightning is approaching or if they come too close to a hazard such as a mine shaft. “We already had this technology going and we had already done GDPR [data privacy] compliance,” he says. When the company noticed early in the pandemic that some of its clients were using the app as the foundation for in-house COVID-19 contact tracing efforts, it quickly built a dedicated app.

“Someone reports sick, your contact tracer can hit a button and quickly see ‘These are the eight people out of a group of 40 that perhaps should stay home or be tested until we sure,'” Van Marrewijk explains. “That gives some assurance there’s a proper process in place.”

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Harry Glorikian: Hello, I’m Harry Glorikian. And this is Moneyball Medicine. The show where we meet executives, entrepreneurs, physicians, and scientists using the power of data to reinvent healthcare from machine learning to genomics, to personalized medicine. We look at the biggest trends in patient care and healthcare management.

And we talked to people behind the trends to find out where data is making the biggest difference.

Do you want to go back to work? I just want to get on a plane so I can get some downtime while the United States is nowhere near, ready to reopen fully other countries, such as Italy, Germany are beginning to reopen cautiously. As many parts of the world start to recover from the COVID 19 pandemic. One of the biggest questions on everyone’s mind is how can we ensure the safety of workers once they are back in the office.

In this episode, I had the pleasure of talking with founder and current CEO of SaferMe, Clint Von Marwick about how his company’s business targeted contact tracing app has been effective in limiting the spread of COVID-19 and will potentially be essential in ensuring employee safety. Once businesses reopened.

SaferMe’s technology is unique in itself as they are specifically targeting businesses, which they believe is more effective than contact chasing publicly by providing a virtual protective bubble for each worker while promising privacy and anonymity, they’ve become one of the leading pioneers for business contact tracing in the world.

Well, Clint, welcome to the show. It’s great to have you here really interested in learning as much as we can about your company,SaferMe, how life is in New Zealand, but generally like, you know, tell me a little bit about your background, how you got into this and, and what your, what your goals are?

Clint Van der Marrewijk: So for SaferMe, is a proximity based safety product.

We’ve been around a couple of years, um, servicing large companies. And when this’ll happen, we actually had a lot of the underlying technology needed for contact tracing, um, and contact tracing for business as a segment, that’s in great demand at the moment and it’s it’s really needed. So that’s what we’re doing a hundred percent of the time.

Um, all our, all our developers are working on it. Um, and we’ve already got a product on market and pretty, pretty focused on it. I’m happy to talk about any background at all and that segment it’s, it’s, it’s really an evolving, um, space for sure.

Harry Glorikian: So, so what does SaferMe do exactly?

Clint Van der Marrewijk: Um, so, uh, contact tracing for business, it’s, it’s all about, um, helping a company respond before a positive outbreak. Um, so that means there’s a contact table, which is accessible inside the business to the health and safety people and HR people for each worker. And so inside the business, if you meet one person, if you come near um, a worker as you’re, as you’re going about your job, um, that will be recorded automatically and put in the contact table um, for later, if you were to say, hey, I feel sick today.

Harry Glorikian: Yep

Clint Van der Marrewijk: Or a manager can come in and say, all right, well, you’ve been in touch with these three people, these three people, um, so you work with them? How often? Okay, great let’s, let’s have them stay home and get them tested and just make sure we try and protect the rest of the workforce. So that’s, that’s what SaferMe delivers.

Harry Glorikian: So was this, I mean, was this the focus of the business before the pandemic and you know, or did it, you know, pivot because of the pandemic? How, how did this come about?

Clint Van der Marrewijk:  Yeah, I mean, it started about three months ago, so, um, at the, at the very beginning, so we started seeing. Um we started seeing people using us for contact tracing early on. So we have existing customers all around the world .

Harry Glorikian: Yep.

Clint Van der Marrewijk:  But we specialize in a very niche area. So we specialize in proximity based safety apps, which as you can imagine, as it’s extremely useful to, um, some of our clients literally will protect you and send you a warning as you’re approaching a mineshaft.

So you’re walking along as a worker you’re you’re out in the field. Surveying, um, gold deposits or iron ore deposits in the middle of nowhere, we would send you a photo of a mineshaft as your, a hundred meters away. And say you don’t fall in this hole like that’s how really niche, um, safety app focus. Um, and it’s, it’s, it’s its own special thing that we think needs to be built.

And we’ve been passionate about it for a long time that we think safety as a, as a function needs to be much better.

Harry Glorikian: I think there are some people there that, you know, that in general that indeed people might need that just for themselves, like not to fall into a manhole while there may be looking at their phone. Right?

Clint Van der Marrewijk: Yeah. I mean, I mean, if you think about the technology, everyone’s got a lot of that, that’s not really being used in a business sense, how it should be, which is, you know, the phones we have in our pockets. Um, so we, we just do advanced safety apps and have for a long time, um, a few years now. And we’ve been growing steadily, but then it just so happened that the technology that we had in place is incredibly valuable for contact tracing.

Harry Glorikian: Yeah

Clint Van der Marrewijk: So we, we rent internally how we describe it as we rent, what’s called a virtual safety bubble around each worker, as you, as your workers, moving around as they approach a dangerous thing. We would warn that person about that dangerous thing. So we already had this technology going and we’d already done what’s called GDPR compliance, which is, its a data standard out of Europe.

Harry Glorikian: Yep

Clint Van der Marrewijk: They have some protections in place for people. And that’s quite important because we were already sharing location-based data from a worker to a company. Hierarchy and having that done as key and contact tracing as well. Um, and so suddenly we had the half of the system done and our existing clients were using it and we saw them using it and they were using it much more heavily than other parts of the product.

And it was like, wow, this is kind of obvious. Um, and the companies at that stage didn’t even know what contact tracing was. It was very early on.

Harry Glorikian: Right

Clint Van der Marrewijk: And even today, Um, especially in America, I would say. And, and in countries with, uh, with, uh, um, with the outbreaks under more control, usually contact tracing is much more well-known. Um, so New Zealand, Australia, parts of Asia, um, the government will actually contact a business and get your contact tracing data when they’re doing their own internal contact tracing, which isn’t the case in most places, at least it’s evolving every day. So that might have changed if, you know, then we do, um, let me know about, that’s not the case in the United States at the moment.

Harry Glorikian: Yeah, no, no. I mean, I actually, it’s funny because I have a bunch of, uh, location-based services, patents from quite some time back. So I was, you know, very familiar with anything that involves a, a GPS and a location, but, but for everybody that’s listening that may not be familiar with this. So what is the definition of contact tracing as you, as you see it.

Clint Van der Marrewijk: Um, it’s, it’s really what traditionally, it’s what you do to try and figure out who could be infected um, when one individual is identified. So in practice, it may well be a group of people on the phone talking to creating a case for someone who’s, who’s sick with a various, some sort of disease and going through who, where they’ve been, who they’ve been in contact with and figuring out who else could be infected and trying to essentially ring fence, um, an outbreak early, which we’ll try to get ahead of things.

I mean, that’s you actually, honestly, You’ll know this subject much more deeply than we probably do with we’re technology people that try to try to give our customers tools to do that for their business.

Harry Glorikian: Right

Clint Van der Marrewijk: There’s some, there’s some real differences in nuance in contact tracing. So most people will have heard now of  contact tracing apps, mostly because of the public apps that have been coming out.

So Singapore, {inaudible}, um, Israel, um, obviously Apple and Google have the, their partnership coming through contact tracing data sharing, but it’s the business side that actually has some differences because a business has a health and safety relationship with their staff members and they can actually get different types of data than just a positive test that can actually get ahead and try and get symptom data, and try and act before, you know, you get your exponential curve and it’s kind of too late.

Harry Glorikian: How does your technology work versus say some of the other different technologies that are out there?  

Clint Van der Marrewijk: I guess there’s a few key differences. One is it’s, it’s focused on business needs, so it’s not a, it’s not a public facing contact tracing product. So

Harry Glorikian: Ok

Clint Van der Marrewijk: There, there are those, you know, as I mentioned, Singapore or the other apps coming out, that those are very much, um, it’s for the public.

There’s a lot of obviously security and privacy constraints there for good reason to make sure that, um, data that you report in is, is going to the right people and things aren’t, kept, shouldn’t be, um, so we focus on the business level, which is really giving that kind of system to, uh, to a company. Um, and- I guess that there’s a few differences in how we deliver. We never, we never let the company see where a worker is. There’s no like location data that’s kept at the company level nothing’s passed through

Harry Glorikian: Right

Clint Van der Marrewijk: But the contact data itself that’s incredibly valuable for responding quickly. So how it works in practice is, someone reports sick, your contact tracer internally at the company can quickly tap a button basically and see the automatic data logs and say, okay, these are the eight people out of, you know, a group of 40 that perhaps should stay home or should be tested until we, until we’re sure. And then what that does for everyone else in the company is give them a, some assurance that, you know, there’s a proper process in place. It’s not, it’s not paper notebooks. Um, it’s not spreadsheets it’s it’s professional.

Harry Glorikian: So, so this sort of brings me to like the business contact tracing side of it versus the public contact tracing side of it. And I’m sort of thinking out loud, right? If everybody had your, your, your platform and there was no location data associated with it, but they could tell you who they came in contact with, that might be a way to sort of secure privacy to a much greater extent.

Clint Van der Marrewijk: Yeah. I mean, the other thing to mention too, as, um, businesses can get to saturation. So if you, if you’re in the contact tracing world kind of saturation is the ,is the goal that you want the vast bulk of your population to have a contact tracing product that stores the right amount of data. So from a business’s perspective, they’ve got all the internal data and they can get to instead of 19 to 90% saturation usually. And that’s really quite useful. Public facing products, though, they typically you’ll get sort of 20 to 30%. You might get, you might get the early adopters, you know, that the typical tick adoption curve you’ll get those early adopters. They will almost use anything inventive. And, um, and then the early majority though, they, they need to see benefit.

They need to see those early adopters really getting benefit out of a public facing app. Um, and unfortunately, you know, that’s a missing component from the early majority, late majority inside that adoption curve. And then you’ve got the laggards who may never use an app if it’s released to the public.

Um, so yeah, there some clear coming back to a question. This is really, I guess, some clear differences between a business function in a public function and is even interesting, more interesting than that in some countries we’re dealing with the interface between public business as being a key. That’s a key spot for products as well is kind of like a sub product.

Um, that sits, and um, scans into bars and restaurants and cafes that the interface between the public and businesses is that’s both sides need that function to really have it like saturation across the group. Um, so if, if you are a country, I mean, how we are, we’re talking with, I guess a few, um, government departments around the place now about different strategies.

Our recommendation really is to have a business focus strategy and then have a public focus strategy. And then how you combine that data to do effective contact tracing is kind of a key as a bunch of key decisions they need to make.

Harry Glorikian: And how are you finding, I guess there’s gotta be, a large cultural component to this, uh, of how receptive or unreceptive people are, but how do you see the receptivity or how are they looking at implementing this?

And, and is it, do you really think like right now COVID is the driving force behind this that’s caused this shift?

Clint Van der Marrewijk: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you, if you’re a big business, you might have say, let’s assume you’ve got 10 factories. Uh, two of those factories are completely shut and at the moment, and the reason they’re shut down is not because you want them to be shut it’s because people have COVID and workers don’t come into work.

Um, and you know, you need, you need to get ahead of it, uh, get ahead of positive tests. So, um, the demand. The reason, the reason they’re doing this is really money. It’s aligning the interest of a business with the interest of a, of a country. Basically the, the business wants to stay operating. There’s already that relationship between staff member and the leadership team, they already share information and kind of in a way that their interests are aligned inside a business too. So health and safety reporting, knowing, protecting your staff members, the duty of care you have, like that all exists outside of business. When you’re dealing with the government, people don’t really want to share their data with the government is naturally more.

More resistance there for probably good reason there you know, um, but inside of business, we can get to saturation really quite quickly. Now what we’re seeing is, um, there’s a means demand from people on the ground. So if you, if you’re, if you’re a worker you want there to be a good system, like the idea that you’re, you’re writing in a paper notebook, or like, Oh, if someone gets sick and then, you know, you’ve been in contact with them, but no one even tells you to stay home.

Everyone in the whole business, but everyone in the whole factory knows there’s no effective system. And then when something is when an outbreak’s happening, they don’t want to come in at all, but they’ve got to earn money. So they have to come in and they’re afraid to come in because so it’s really good to give these workers something that actually works.

Um, and, and we’re seeing good adoption so much faster than a safety rollout, much faster.

Harry Glorikian: Yeah, you may want to talk to Elon Musk. He, he really wants to open his factory in California. So, uh, this may be something he may, uh, want to use with the, uh, government of California to say I’ve got a way to keep track of my workers to keep the factory safe.

Clint Van der Marrewijk: Yes. That’s kind of interesting in the US that, um, companies essentially serve many of the functions of a government. So coming from New Zealand or the UK is similar, well Australia. Um, the government has a very centralized healthcare system and centralized response to COVID. Um, but in the US, it’s often the companies will have their own testing procedures that they literally have their own medical staff, you know, using data to try and figure out who to test when {inaudible}

Harry Glorikian: Right

Clint Van der Marrewijk: Which particular people do we need to protect more than others.

Um, which traditionally is kind of a government lead, um, thing elsewhere. So yeah, that, that’s, that’s what we’re seeing. So we’re kind of a tool in the toolbox of a company that needs to respond to this. And, um, obviously there’s other tools and we try and stick very strictly to what we deliver and try and be clear what we can and cannot do, um, so that, you know, they can get things done faster.

Harry Glorikian: So what, what is, what is your company done right now from a contract tracing perspective specifically around this whole COVID-19 dynamic? Cause I can imagine that, you know, The phone is ringing off the hook and it’s, so it’s gotta be like, you’re engaging different places and putting things in place. And where are you seeing, you know, it deployed and where are you seeing the fruits of that labor?

Clint Van der Marrewijk: Well, in New Zealand? The product is free to any New Zealand business. So, um, the government, um, essentially paid us to make that happen. Um, but as, uh, as I mentioned, the, the, the environment in a country where it’s under control is slightly different where the government is actually getting more data from a business directly.

So, I mean, we obviously have a lot of engagement with companies in New Zealand. Um, and then it’s interesting market by market, but then if you come into the US market, there is a great deal of demand there. What I, what I expect to happen with contact tracing is, um for the next, until, until the US gets it under control, I suspect that it will be dealt with on a, on a company by company basis and potentially on a state by state basis. Um, and I’m just an outsider looking in at your country. So you, you might have a better, but once it gets close to being under control, if that happens, it wouldn’t surprise me to see mandated contact tracing for business a bit like other countries.

Um, and so we want to be ready for that. We are obviously scaling very rapidly to deploy and we’re deploying over and over and over again.

Harry Glorikian: Yeah. You said something interesting there, like, are there places where it’s mandated? Oh, that’s interesting. I mean, I had, I had no idea. I mean, uh, we take, we take not being traced here pretty seriously, but, uh, just, just sort of interesting to hear about other places and that it’s a mandated, uh, process.

Clint Van der Marrewijk: Yeah, I mean the {inaudible} so it’s interesting New Zealand, the demand, the demand profile is slightly different to, um, to the US the US demand is actually to, to maintain business operations, to make money again, to actually help the {inaudible}. You know, which is the same thing staff members want, like people want to go to work and work.

Harry Glorikian: Right

Clint Van der Marrewijk: -Want to do it safely. So the demand on the US is really top-down. So you’re talking C level demand for, for a solution. Um, the demand in New Zealand is different because the, the outbreaks under control here, but, um, depending on the sector that you work in as a business, you actually have to do contact tracing internally.

So you have to monitor who comes into contact with who you have to have that data ready, ready to go when it’s requested. Um, so then the ministry of health, which I guess would be an equivalent of you’ll have an equivalent in the United States. But when, um, if there’s a suspected case that came- comes in, then they might, well come in and ask for your contact, tracing data, get that, and then try and understand um, who’s been in contact with who, and then try to stop the spread, essentially.

Harry Glorikian: How do you guys parse data on an individual? In other words is it de-identified sort of piece of data that’s coming in and you can say, look, these five notes came in contact with each other or- but, you know, he was at the bar.

I mean, you know, just trying to figure out, like, how do you think about this from the individual’s privacy, but also the health departments or the health groups need to know so that they can protect the broader population?

Clint Van der Marrewijk: Yeah. So, um, we try to use common sense, sensible person type tests on data that’s viewable or not viewable.

Um, Because a lot of this is brand new. So some of the, some of the things that are happening now, haven’t really been tested before. Um, but I can tell you what we do and the way we try to think about the trust that we’re, that businesses are putting in us and our users are putting it in the product. So, SaferMe, um, we keep contact tracing data at the moment for 42 days.

After 42 days, we let it go. Um, we based that actually on, uh, Ebola, we, we couldn’t really find when there are actually standards coming through for this now. So New Zealand’s putting through a standard on how long data should be kept by contact tracing products, right. It’s actually a different, it’s a different timeframe.

Um, at the moment we store it for 42 days after that it’s gone. Um, we obviously have the GDPR, um, standard,

Harry Glorikian: Yep

Clint Van der Marrewijk: So that’s the European standard. That’s, it’s a bit more strict than the United States. And that just gives the user the right to kind of reach in and delete

Harry Glorikian: Yep

Clint Van der Marrewijk: Or reach in and not reach in an anonymise if they need to. Um, and that’s actually quite reassuring, I think, to, to users and the business. And then the other thing is we don’t store, we don’t share the location of users with the business, so that’s never available.

Harry Glorikian: Yep

Clint Van der Marrewijk: There are products there that we could do it, but we never do. Um, and then that means the user knows that no one knows where they are.

Like even don’t have some magic view that we can see where you are that data’s not there so that that’s not stored either. Um, so I mean, that’s, that’s, there’s different levels of that. Um, But the end within the contact table itself, there’s different data types. So everyone has your phone and it’s your contact table. Basically-

Harry Glorikian: Yep

Clint Van der Marrewijk: It moves with, um, there’ll be manual contact data that goes in there. So this is when an internal worker meets with a delivery person. Um, Someone, you know, could be anyone unexpected that doesn’t have the app. 

Harry Glorikian: Yep

Clint Van der Marrewijk: If they have the app, then you’ve got some, some data already stored. Um, and then we have second and third order contacts, um, and the contact table as well, which basically is a bit like LinkedIn, you meet with someone, they meet with someone, but they were sick

Harry Glorikian: Yep

Clint Van der Marrewijk: And the timing right where it could have come to you, that’s available so that you can see that, um, we store the amount of times that you’ve been in contact with someone.

So that’s a key metric. So, um, how that,- why that matters is that, you know, accuracy of tracking is not perfect. We don’t tell the business, you’ve got a perfect record. We tell the business, this is a good starting place to do your contact tracing, but there’ll be, you might meet with someone 40 times over seven days.

And the system, and that’s a good, a good indication. You’re probably right next to them at work. Or you meet with them all the time. 

Harry Glorikian: Right

Clint Van der Marrewijk: If you get sick, um, that person probably should stay home or have some precautions get tested. And that’s how we try to stop and eliminate within a workforce. The alternative is wait for a positive test, then do contact tracing, which it gets out of control.

Like there’s, there might be 30 or 40 people that could have it, and you know, a whole factory that can’t really operate anymore.

Harry Glorikian: Yeah.

Clint Van der Marrewijk: So there’s no comparison in that sense when it comes to the sort of privacy level of the data itself kept trying to get back to your original point. You’ve got different types of contact data, and then you’ve got different types of users as a business.

You can see your, your people basically, you can see the contact between your workers. You cannot see the contact between your workers and the public, if they have the app or your workers and other workers, if they have the app. 

Harry Glorikian: Yep. 

Clint Van der Marrewijk: We’re trying to work through how to combine companies that want to share data across company, but sometimes they don’t.

So by default you can’t, but the data is there if requested by law. Um, so if, if it has to be delivered to the health authorities by law, um, then we can work through that and, and make it happen for the company. But it doesn’t, unless the company tells us to do something it’s not going anywhere, it’s staying with them.

Harry Glorikian: And you basically would sort of like during a situation like this, depending on the disease or whatever, have to adjust time frames. Right because something like COVID that has this two week incubation period where people can get infected. I’m sure that people have, you have to go back and run your reports to see who came in contact with who over the last two weeks let’s say.

Clint Van der Marrewijk: Yeah. yeah I mean, that’s exactly what a contact table is. Yeah. The minute you push a button and the data is that exactly is, is what we represent. And then as, as you can’t, so inside a company, they have a contact tracing person, what people, and then their job is to respond quickly, try to work within the policy that the company needs to have.

Um, so for example, some companies, if you’re serving the public. Uh, you know, a thousand stores, you might have a slightly different policy for how, how long ago one of your other staff members would need to be before you think that person’s safe? Um, it might be different. Um, but one of the things in the contact table was the last time you met that person.

So that’s a key, a key thing. So, in other words, if you’ve met someone 80 times, And the last one was eight days ago. If you’ve got a policy internally that we only really tell people from four days ago that they could be at risk. So that’s really up to the medical advisors and these companies. And, you know, they’ve got their own teams of people on this.

Harry Glorikian: So where do you, what do you see for the future of the company post COVID and which I don’t know what post COVID is yet, but I have a feeling it’s going to be around for quite some time, but you know, how do you see this rolling forward for the company?

Clint Van der Marrewijk: Uh, for SaferMe, I mean, I think, I think contact tracing is going to be with us as a new product type.

Um, it’s obviously going to burn hot to use, you know, being hot for two or three years, I think, but I, what we’ve tried to focus on is safety directly. So I mean, our competitors, we believe, focus too much on compliance, too much on, um, paperwork and processes, but what we want, what we think the future is, is that literally there will be products that are built to protect you.

Like there will be systems and services and agents, intelligent agents that will, that help you not hurt yourself, that help you do what you want to do when you’re being your best self, which you’re not always, we’re not always being, sometimes we make mistakes. Um, and those services will drastically reduce the amount of injuries and accidents that happen to people like in the, in the future, you won’t accidentally hurt yourself or get sick, um without knowing the risk in advance, if you want to buy these sorts of systems will be incredibly advanced compared to today. Um, and that’s essentially what we’d build. Um, I guess another way to look at it is, at any point in time, it feels like our society thinks of ourselves as too safe or, you know, over-protected.

But if you were to rewind the clock and go back to, um, when the golden gate bridge was built, I think something like that 29 people died building that bridge,

Harry Glorikian: Yep, yep

Clint Van der Marrewijk: Something like that that was seen as a success. No, you could do that.

Harry Glorikian: You could do that back then. Yeah.

Clint Van der Marrewijk: Today we literally have, I think it’s something like 6,000, 300 people a day die at work through to illness.

And it’s more now because of COVID, but that’s the average, um, through to injury, accidents and illness at work. That’s going to be incredibly low in the future. We’re a hundred years from today. We’re going to look back at today and go that’s crazy that they did that. Um, and the sort of question is not, if that will happen, the question is when, how will that happen?

Who’s going to do it. Are we ready to do it? And I, my, my take is that the COVID related contact tracing product. We are rolling out is the first kind of wave of that change. And then the other features we already have, we’ve already got a bunch of features that literally try to protect a worker. I mean, we can just roll those in.

And, um, so that’s out future focused on COVID solve this problem for businesses, solve it over and over and over again. And then. Keep protecting workers.

Harry Glorikian: Well, that sounds great. Um, uh, you know, uh, it was, it was great to talk to you. I’m glad we had the time. Um, and, uh, what, what is the time difference between New Zealand?

Clint Van der Marrewijk: It’s 8h30 in the morning here, and this is my fourth coffee of the day.

Harry Glorikian: Oh, okay. There you go. Yeah. Now that’ll tell you, so

Clint Van der Marrewijk: There’s been a few sales meetings this morning, so

Harry Glorikian: Excellent. Well, I really appreciate the time. And, uh, it was great to talk to you and I’m glad the listeners got to learn a little bit about contract tracing.

Clint Van der Marrewijk: No worries, mate. Good to meet you.

Harry Glorikian: And that’s it for this episode. If you enjoyed money by medicine, please head over to iTunes to subscribe. Rate and leave a review. It is greatly appreciated. Hope you join us next time until then farewell.


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